- monkeyed with) the text in hundreds of places! An addition to the Dead Sea Scrolls, scholars can use the Peshitta to decide between the Masoretic text and the Septuagint. In light of its history, what can the actual language of the Peshitta tell us about its character? ". Believe it or not, the LXX, hearkens back to a more authentic Hebrew text, one which the authors of the MT disdained. A comparison of the christologically important verses selected by The Orthodox Life reveals that the ‘tamperings’ listed here are both pre Justin Martyr and pre Christianity. The New Jerusalem Bible is my favorite. It is an example of the Masoretic recension, which is usually dated to have been shaped between the 6th and 10th centuries A.D. | The Orthodox Life, Pingback: Protestant Myths About the Deuterocanon | Reformed Christian Theology. In fact, the Eusebius/Origen manuscripts show that New Testament passages were inserted into the LXX making it appear as if the NT is quoting the LXX. It is an example of the Masoretic recension, which is usually dated to have been shaped between the 6th and 10th centuries A.D. http://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/aramaic-pes-tta-tanakh-vs-hebrew-masoretic-tanakh.35362/#ixzz2AP3oHOgH. Create a free website or blog at WordPress.com. Pretty thing, isn’t he? The influence of the Septuagint is particularly strong in Isaiah and the Psalms, probably due to their use in the liturgy… More specifically, the current discussion is over the respective chr… Its like making 100 copies of the masoretic text and then saying see we have 100 versions which agree. To demand an affidavit of the Apostles stating that they deem the Septuagint as the actual Word of God is fairly unnecessary from a logical point of view according to foundations outlined above. In some passages the translators have may have used the Greek Septuagint. This is all news to me but fascinating nonetheless. Pingback: Masoretic Text vs. Original Hebrew - Preachers Institute. Messiah. Vowel points are not allowed in Torah scrolls which may only contain the biblical text, because it was never intended to be part of the actual text, but rather something separate. From the comparison of the New Testament quotes made by the Apostles from the Old Testament, it’s crystal clear that whenever a modern version doesn’t contain the full quote, something strange is going on. | A Light Up Ahead, The Dangerous Art of Bible Translation | Focused and Free, Canned Food and a 401(k) | The Orthodox Life, Blessed Are They Who Reprove Boldly | The Orthodox Life, St. Paul Quoting the Septuagint | The Orthodox Life, Only Negligible Differences? As with other religious claims, one finds some facts, some wisdom, and a lot of hyperbole. The Septuagint has many problems too, like the Masoretic text, and shouldn’t have our unguided confidence as if it’s absolutely authentic. 2. . Fr. Reblogged this on Reformed Christian Theology and commented: Some historians consider “Baphomet” to be a corruption of the name of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed (Mahomet) while to others (including myself) it seems more likely to be a corrupt version of the Arabic words meaning “Father of Wisdom” (much as “Hocus Pocus” was the Protestant corruption of the Latin “Hoc est Corpus Meus”—“This is My Body”) and the reference is to a “Talking Head” which refers back to a lovely legend in which demonic infestation and necrophilia are involved 🙂. Bob, thanks so much for your blog today and for highlighting the chapter 2 portion from the Wisdom of Solomon. So which verses in these Protestant versions are the ones noted in the LXX? but I guess the diabolical one perhaps favours his own rather than the self righteous. Page 2 of 2 < Prev 1 2. Here’s Why . Some of us might have been interested in reading what you had to say but you subsequent insult is a major turnoff. Joseph Gleason: This is obvious when one compares the Peshitta to the Septuagint and the Masoretic text (I've done this personally). Fascinating! What value has in this case your argument? The talmud mentioning the missing nun verse only proves that the proto-masoretic existed before the talmud was made. ///// How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign? If you desire to be fit for heaven, you must live the Orthodox life. The Masoretic texts are indeed flawed, because they are the renderings of man; but all other religious texts are similarly flawed, because they too are the renderings of man. The Religious A priori. Does Peshitta Tanakh ha[ve] this contradiction? Curiously, it seems to have been invented by Semitic slaves in Egypt who adapted Hieroglyphs into an alphabet of around 30 characters. Considering that Dead Sea Scrolls were cited earlier in the article, why not include them too? Thank you very much for a most interesting article. Please be advised, that with all ancient texts, one must be careful and view it together with other editions/reprints (in case some text is lost or unreadable due to age etcetera). - Page 3 - Christian Forums, https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+22%3A17&version=CJB, http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=0&b=21&c=144, http://www.drbo.org/lvb/chapter/21144.htm, Masoretic Text vs. Original Hebrew - Preachers Institute, Protestant Myths About the Deuterocanon | Reformed Christian Theology, https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbehalfofall/the-signature-of-god/, https://yahwehismyrock.wordpress.com/problems-with-the-masoretic-text-kjv/. This is well after the Septuagint was translated (3rd century before Christ), the Peshitta (1st and 2nd Centuries A.D.), or the Latin Vulgate (4th Century A.D.). Neither are wholesome if swollowed whole! I doubt it was a human censor, but an algorithmic filter that takes exception to specific letter combinations, without taking into account their context. BTPost, it sounds to me by your own words that you plain on reading the information in the PDFs to confirm or deny the validity thereof(?). .... f01) Ancient Versions of the Scriptures.pdf, f02) The DSS vs Massoret Text vs Samaritan vs Septuagint vs Aramaic.pdf, f05) A Medley of Old Testament Apologetics.pdf, f06) the clear truth about the apocrypha.pdf. - V. Chelloveck. The DSS group had a library with different copies with various readings. - V.C. When I see someone....particularly a someone of apparent religiosity, claiming to be proclaiming "the truth", (and by inference...the exclusivity of this truth), I wonder about the objectivity of their faith claims. This early Christian practice suggests that many Jews accepted these books, even prior to their conversion to Christianity. Just saying that just saying don't always cut the mustard. This critical Peshitta text is based on a collation of more than seventy Peshitta and a few other Aramaic manuscripts. Did you do a comparison of the Septuagint with DSS? You claim the nun verse being almost the same as verse 17 invalidates the LXX version. Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. Change ). And perhaps it is. The Masoretes do not have the Apocrypha Books in their canon like the Geneva translator understood they should be, Holy Bible: From the Ancient Eastern Text, "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. Great article. The Peshitta being the sole Semitic witness of very specific readings only found in the Septuagint. Where is this warranty coming from? Often, the Peshitta agrees with the Septuagint against the Hebrew Masoretic text. Roman Bibles are based on the Septuagint canon with their text developed by Jerome to reflect (at least in part) Hebrew manuscripts which predate the Masoretic. I have given examples above of some of the places the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Peshitta, and the Septuagint agree. I am an Atheist but I honestly enjoyed this article. “The various readings in the Old Testament Text and the differences between the ancient versions and the Masoretic Text convinced him that the integrity of the Hebrew text as held by Protestants, was untenable.”. - Paine, "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Looks like it should be https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/onbehalfofall/the-signature-of-god/ Can you cheat the Holy Spirit by whose inspiration the Scripture is written? An Atheist will never be able to say, "I TOLD YOU SO"!! Here are some answers to consider: 1) The starting point is Christ and his apostles. The Masoretic Text is part of a tradition that began with Rabbi Akiva. . The discovery of the dead sea scrolls has given access to earlier versions of the Masoretic text and has given us a fourth way to test the verses given. The Masoretic Text is part of a tradition that began with Rabbi Akiva. The septuagint is far more reliable than the Masoretic more often than not. Either way, the MT is not in agreement with the text which was quoted by Jesus and the apostles. ), and besides the different numbering of the Psalms between the LXX and CJB, it also appears there is difference between the Protestant versions and the CJB as well. Therefore, such New Testament quotes are right and the source is reliable; especially when the abscence of the verse in the Psalm as held in the Masoretic Text is breaking the pattern of the acrostic. I liked the article very interesting indeed. Perhaps our internal divine spark is being overwhelmed by the glare of the supposed revealed truths of others. If reflexes and emotions can be genetically encoded in us at birth, why cannot the truth be so encoded? Jesus and the apostles quoted from the LXX, not from the DSS. The Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary. I’ll stick with the OSB, thank you. Much appreciated. What is a religion, but a cult with a larger following and a veneer of respectability. Jesus is the final judge of the Septuagint. Or perhaps they were just inept. 13 and 14. Numerous findings among the Dead Sea Scrolls suggest the existence of 1st century Jewish communities which accepted many of the Deuterocanonical books as authentic Scripture. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. is quoted in the Talmud (Berakhot 4b) as saying that there is no nun verse. for Messianic Prophesy The Supiriority of the Septuagint: This is an important issue because the Septuagin (Greek Translation of the OT made sometime in 300's BC in Alexandria) differs on some points form the Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text or MT). It shows a number of linguistic and exegetical similarities to the Aramaic Targums but is now no longer thought to derive from them. Whatever analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls you are relying on is skewed due to including some non qumran texts as Dead Sea Scrolls, such as Masada documents and other cave discoveries which are proto-masoretic. Would ever God forget a letter of the Hebrew alphabet? I recently just posted a page on some of the Masoretic Text errors. Talmudic and midrashic allusions and all available Jewish commentators, both the great medieval authorities, like Rashi, Kimhi, and Ibn Ezra, and the moderns S. D. Luzzatto, Malbim, and Ehrlich, as well as all the important non-Jewish commentators, were consulted. Discerning "the truth" about the creator from the writings of man is about like eating greased M&Ms with chopsticks. I glanced through the PDFs you included. You see the adding of vowels in the Masoretic text as a bad thing, you say that vowels might drastically change the meaning, giving an example with the English slip/slap, but that’s only because you don’t know too many things about Hebrew language, the consonants are always giving the meaning, each word has a root, based mainly on consonants, the vowels cannot change the meaning, they just help in an accurate pronounciation, which is also important, considering that all Christian communities use so often the word “Alelluyah”, having no idea that this is related to the name YHWH of our creator. Adam Clarke writes: “The Masorets were the most extensive Jewish commentators which that nation could ever boast. But if y'all around here are as adamant about the Geneva Bible then y'all would know that we should have the Books called the Apocrypha belong in our Bibles as full fledged Scripture, and not hidden or thrown out all together. Russian Bibles Are Totally Different from American Ones. To the extent that the DSS agree with the LXX, they are right. Aramaic, Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion are not independent versions from the proto-masoretic. The vowel points were not changes/additions made to the texts itself, but rather a way of clarifying the text as they understood it. However in the case of the LXX vs the MT,that would be the wrong inclination. Shlama, There’s an interesting conversation on the New Testament forum at Peshitta.org concerning the use of the word “shachar” and “shachad” in DSS Isaiah (Dead Sea Scrolls) and the Hebrew MT (Masoretic text), which I have here copied my post. But I looked at the Psalm entries from the chart, comparing the LXX with the Complete Jewish Bible, along with a few modern Protestant versions (NKJV, NASB, NIV, etc. I agree it is possible that a number of the textual variants arose prior to the birth of Christ. Quigley_Sharps The Badministrator Administrator Founding Member. How Should Decisions be Made in the Family? The Masoretic texts are not only the youngest of all the ancient Old Testament Texts but they are the least reliable as well. Classical Syriac, the dialect the Peshitta is written in, is the most prolific classical Aramaic dialect. . The King James Bible is based to a considerable extent on the Masoretic Text. It is not enough to have Orthodox beliefs. Do you prefer one over the other, and most importantly is there archeological evidence one is more accurate than the other or something like that? This system is one of the most artificial, particular, and extensive comments ever written on the Word of God; for there is not one word in the Bible that is not the subject of a particular gloss through its influence.”, Louis Cappel concluded that “the vowel points and accents were not an original part of Hebrew, but were inserted by the Masorete Jews of Tiberias, not earlier then the 5th Century AD, and that the primitive Hebrew characters are Aramaic and were substituted for the more ancient at the time of the captivity.” . The “Radically” Different Alphabet does not change the meaning or even spelling of the text, and is for all intents and purposes not that much more significant than changing the font. The name Textus Receptus was first used, to refer to editions of the Greek New Testament published by the Elzevir Brothers in 1633. the Septuagint is far more accurate as well. The Septuagint and Peshitta texts were preserved within the Church, and so the Church believes that the text of the Old Testament was been authoritatively preserved in these textual traditions. I find that when one receives information, any information, from another Individual, it behoves the receptor to do their "Due Diligence" and confirm that Information for themselves, BEFORE entering, said information, into ones Personal Truth Database. I doubt it was a human censor, but an algorithmic filter that takes exception to specific letter combinations, without taking into account their context. I have given examples above of some of the places the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Peshitta, and the Septuagint agree. The Peshitta version of the Old Testament is an independent translation based largely on a Hebrew text similar to the Proto-Masoretic Text. Actually most of them don’t even know that their creator has a name, they call his name “God”. If we are to say that the Bible has been inspired, we need to know what it contains. Yet these same version do, indeed, leave out the parts of verses noted elsewhere in the chart, like the CJB does. This is an easy to read article that every serious student of the Scriptures should read. The early Church accepted the inspiration of the Deuterocanon, and frequently quoted authoritatively from books such as Wisdom, Sirach, and Tobit. Bingo, if only you could/would take you own advice perhaps you might would here him encourage you to study this instead of - how did you put it - pontificating(?). On top of this, we can account for Nicaea and the modern (KJ) Bible or the Geneva Bible and the traditional beliefs of millions, and I do not see any turn from the ways of the present. I was nodding along with you, while reading your first paragraph; but I had to stop nodding when you claimed to have the real "truth.". The readings of the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls, Samaritan Torah, Greek Septuagint TaNaKh, and Aramaic Peshitta TaNaKh in unison testafy against the perverted Masoretic renderings. One final point, analyses of the dead sea scrolls have shown them to be over all on the whole more similar to MT than Septuagint. maybe if we just shut up with our pontificating and sat quietly, we could hear the actual voice of God; instead of the clamor of man. Validity of LXX. The earliest Semitic alphabetic scripts seem to come from the Sinai and Egypt from close to Moses’ time, if the dating is to be trusted, but what is clear is that Proto-Sinaitic was a predecessor of Paleo-Hebrew/Canaanitic alphabets. Don't just take my word for it, the Masorete scribes within their own footnotes said that they literally changed (i.e. Still some books of DSS are very close to the Masoretic text. Nobody would suggest that the myths and legends (and the gods that inhabited them) of the Illiad and The Odyssy were validated by the excavation of Troy by Calvert and Schliemann et al. May the Lord Almighty keep blessing and strengthening you. Or if they did not quote directly from the LXX, then they quoted from a non-corrupted Hebrew predecessor to the LXX. I had never really paid much attention to in the past. The problem with offering "the truth" of any revealed religion, is that a revealed truth is a personal truth. All 27 books of the common Western Canon of the New Testament are included in this British & Foreign Bible Society's 1905 Peshitta edition, as is the adultery pericope (John 7:53–8:11). - Thoreau, "I prefer peace. It is a more faithful representation of the original Hebrew Scriptures.” The Septuagint is in many ways fraudulent, the story about the 70 translators is a myth, and we have no manuscripts of the LXX older than 300 AD. The discovery of the dead sea scrolls has given access to earlier versions of the Masoretic text and has given us a fourth way to test the verses given. The vowel points alone add whole conjugations to the language. The Nun verse in Septuagint is just a copy of verse 17, just switching the first word to one that begins with a nun. In Peshitta Tanakh, it says Beth-el. Textual preservation is a critical issue for the Bible believer. This critical Peshitta text is based on a collation of more than seventy Peshitta and a few other Aramaic manuscripts. This is quite one sided & bias against the MT (which I don’t believe to be perfect, but do believe it to be more accurate than Septuagint). Only part of Genesis and portions of the books of history/law come from a time prior to written recording. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. บริษัท บลูเซิร์ฟ อินโนเวชั่น จำกัด / บริษัท บลูเซิร์ฟ มีเดีย แอนด์ คอนสตรัคชั่น จำกัด I really don’t think so, there is a strong admonishment against in Apocalypse 22:18 and even without it, no person that had met personally Jesus would ever defiled the Scripture like that. As concerning the vowel signs added, I warmly recommend you to study a bit the basics of Hebrew language. As for the intent of this thread, I am but simply trying to share knowledge with my brothers and sisters in this creation based on real evidence so that they can put that knowledge to good use. Adding Vowel Points: Discussion in 'Faith and Religion' started by The Texas RAT, Oct 26, 2012. Furthermore, it is clear that the text that Christ and the Apostles used most closely matches the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic text. the Targums, the Peshitta, the Vulgate, and the Arabic version of Saadya. I have several observations: . ( Log Out /  🙂, One supposes the “Goat-Demon” in the LED as quoted above to be a reference to the “Goat of Mendes” often erroneously referred to a “Baphomet”. Aramaic Peshitta TaNaKh vs Hebrew Masoretic TaNaKh. Long before the Masorets, Rabbi Johanan Ha-Nappah (3rd cent.) Nevertheless, sometimes it is best to offer a proposition and let the chips fall as they may. At the time the Samaritan Pentateuch originated, there was not yet a “Masoretic text.” The Masoretic text is the text (or rather family of texts) that was provided with a written vowel system, hence indicating the pronunciation of the words. others are completely independent. Would ever a New Testament writer dare to add anything as if quoting the Scripture? As for “Baphomet” he enters history during the trials and near extermination of the Knights Templar during the reign of Pope Clement V and King Philip IV of France. Peshitta Tanakh clears the contradiction found in Hebrew Masoretic Text. Either way, the LXX is what matches the NT quotations from Christ and the apostles. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace." I'm familiar with most of the information and arguments contained therein. I don’t think so. To the extent they disagree with the LXX, they are wrong. Myths, legends, roaming around Jerusalem--These folks had a well documented society with great cities. “There is no such nun verse is in other important ancient translations such as the Aramaic Targum & the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion” that is because those versions are all based/derived from the proto-masoretic. If they accepted the accuracy of the Septuagint, then the Septuagint is authoritative. - Jefferson. Perhaps all of these claims of revealed religions actually obscure the innate sense of the truth about our creator that has been within each of us all along. It shows a number of linguistic and exegetical similarities to the Aramaic Targums but is now no longer thought to derive from them. Rather, it was a case of illegitimately selecting one text over another. Whoso answers a word before he hears a cause, it is folly and reproach to him. The fact remains that there is no direct translation from Aramaic to English. When certain Hebrew texts differed from the LXX, of course the Masoretes often selected texts which carried vague or nonexistent Christology. Scholars have been discussing this issue for millennia, but one aspect of this debate has garnered considerable attention in our circles recently: the Masoretic (MT) vs. Septuagint (LXX) debate. The King James Bible is based to a considerable extent on the Masoretic Text. - Socrates, “It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.” - Voltaire, "It's not what you look at that's important; it's what you see." This could have been conscious tampering. Syriac churches use the Peshitta. This makes much more sense. To call this people anything less than industrious reeks of a personal bias. 8 vs. 18 Even the Qeiyafa Ostracon dates to around three or four hundred years after Moses. “In exceptional, difficult cases, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Peshitta, the Latin Vulgate, and other sources were consulted to shed possible light on the text, or if necessary, to support a divergence from the Masoretic text.” Masoretic text, (from Hebrew masoreth, “tradition”), traditional Hebrew text of the Jewish Bible, meticulously assembled and codified, and supplied with diacritical marks to enable correct pronunciation.This monumental work was begun around the 6th century ad and completed in the 10th by scholars at Talmudic academies in Babylonia and Palestine, in an effort to reproduce, … The point I am trying to convey is that we should be studying the Scriptures from a Text based closest to the original Scriptures and not by ones wherewith their translators had and agenda. Then, it’s mandatory to evaluate the quality and accuracy of the oldest transcriptions available. . Not a good thing to do. The Masoretes changed Scripture verse to hide the fact that, [commonly referred to as Jesus] was The Anointed One prophesied in the Scriptures. Didn't your mom ever teach you that it is easier to catch flies with honey rather than vinegar? Attached are PDFs which demonstrate the Hebrew Masoretic's texts should be the last texts we should base a translation of the Scriptures from. Any omnipotent, omniscient creator who wished to convey "the truth" surely would be able to end the argument, and provide the truth to all of his creations. Certainly, how could we consider to have “the Bible” while holding copies of translations into modern languages from anciant texts transcribed from transliterated texts from nonextant scrolls and parchments to contrast with? In fact, a scroll with vowel points would be deemed invalid for use. This is the English translation of the Syriac Peshitta by James Murdock in 1915. “Radically Different Alphabet” Also, it looks like the word in Isaiah 7:14 was reverted back to “virgin” in most of the Protestant translations, with some having a footnote showing the alternate term “young woman”. This is ridiculous. Attached are PDFs which demonstrate the Hebrew Masoretic's texts should be the last texts we should base a translation of the Scriptures from. I was raised on the KJV Bible wherewith it's OT is based from the Masoretic text, but in my studies I have found that they are not as pure a rendition of the original Scripture writings as the Aramaic Pe$hitta is. Say, I know your fond of the Septuaint over the Masoretic text in the Old Testament scriptures, but how do you feel about New Testament variations between the Textus Receptus, Majority Text, and Critical Text. Both 2 Kings 8:26 and 2 Chronicles 22:2 (of Peshitta Tanakh) says Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign. I, for one, am not going to read those pdfs absent a good and compelling reason to do so other than your "request" to read them before commenting. which we already knew. But the Orthodox tradition has used the Septuagint (LXX) much more. but they are completely and entirely derived from the proto-masoretic text. I may have a religious experience and, from it, develop my own personal truth, but it doesn't mean that you should totally redesign your own view of religion because of my experience. "The unexamined life is not worth living." More like an added commentary/interpretation than an amendment to the actual text, which remained the same. I guess it depends upon who is documenting the history.....it strikes me that the Judaic account of their history is more than a little self serving, and in that sense they have been very industrious indeed. So the DSS cannot be skewed as being more similar to the MT than Septuagint. It had a golden age between the 5th and 8th centuries and spread all over the Middle East to parts as far as India and China. extus Receptus is the name given to a series of Byzantine based Greek texts of the New Testament printed between 1500 and 1900. . The DSS may or may not be helpful, depending on the situation. For example, in Psalms 145, the case is made that the MT is missing a verse which is contained in Septuagint, but ignores counter arguments such as: There are other alphabetic acrostics in the Book of Psalms which skip a letter, such as Psalms 25 and 34. Most of my Bibles are translated into English from the Masoretic Text, the NA or UBS Greek text, and the Greek Septuagint (most also infrequently referring to the Vulgate). While the Masoretic Text was completed rather late (the oldest copies we have of the Masoretic Text are from ninth century), it was the culmination of several centuries of work. I wasn’t aware that DSS Isaiah used “shachad” which … Search for: Physicians Resources; User Login; Home; About CDC. So you come in here and call us all ignorant right away? This is dangerous ground, even for me. In those cases, the MT tampering was not a case of inventing new texts. Perhaps if you had used a bit of ingenuity, you could have fooled the dumb filter with Pe$h!tta, but I guess the diabolical one perhaps favours his own rather than the self righteous.
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